Sometimes my responses to comments left for posts require a little more attention than the comments section provides so I’ve decided to reply to one comment for “All Work No Pray” in this post. “Orthodox Apprentice” wrote:
Your anti-semitic comments are highly offensive.
You should be careful with the accusations you throw around because a statement like that is libel. I have no problem with Jews or people who practice any religion. I do, however, think the religions themselves are nutty. While I don’t discriminate against anyone for their beliefs, any discussions of those beliefs are given the same kind of consideration I give to people’s discussions of their alien abductions or reincarnations. I just don’t think believing in a burning bush that speaks is all that different.
But besides that, what did I write that you consider to be anti-semitic? I had a problem with the guys taking time off work for ANY reason. I mentioned that they are Jewish because it’s relevant to their excuse but I didn’t say one word to imply their particular religious affiliation was a factor. I think my subtle praise for Lenny should have indicated such.
Observant Jews are forbidden from working on Jewish holidays. They don’t have a choice – it’s simply not allowed.
What happens if they do work? Will a couple thugs beat them to a pulp with a giant loaf of challah? Lenny’s Jewish and he worked. Is he going to hell now? One problem I have with organized religions is that many still abide by traditions that were established at a time when it was practical to follow them but they have not been updated to reflect the current state of affairs. The worst example of this has to be the Catholic church’s continued refusal to allow its practitioners to use birth control, particularly condoms. One word from the Pope could result in far fewer AIDS-stricken, starving babies living in this world. There comes a point when common sense should dictate how and which traditions are followed.
I don’t know of any corporation in this country that does not allow employees to take off on religious holidays. The right to practice religion is protected by our Constitution.
Do you know of any corporations that allow time off specifically for religious holidays? If so, I’d like to know about them. If a company has a policy that states each employee gets 5 personal days a year, then great- the Jews can use those days to observe holidays and the easy single chicks can use those days to observe hard bodies. But if a company gives special privilleges to people for religious reasons, that’s discrimination against agnostics, atheists and people whose religions don’t include holidays every other week. My only interest is in equality for everybody.
I support people’s right to practice any religion but if they choose to let it interfere with their work, they should suffer the consequences. The same applies to being a parent or a drama queen; you do that on your own time.
These guys did not slack off or go out drinking. They spent the two days in a synagogue praying to God for health, peace and prosperity.
For all you know, they could have been praying to win The Apprentice. I’ve watched enough reality shows to know that’s the sort of hollow, selfish desire a lot of people pray for. And who are you to determine one reason is more valid than the other for skipping work? You may think my need to party and have a good time is silly while I think your need to talk to imaginary people is silly. This is precisely why there needs to be a blanket allowance for all employees and if such an allowance doesn’t exist then you pay the price at work for making something else a priority, just as I’m sure Lenny suffered some sort of repercussions within his faith for making work his priority.
The producers of the show knew that these two guys would not be available on certain days, yet they picked them for the cast and scheduled tasks for those days. It was probably set up intentionally to create a conflict. You can’tblame Dan and Lee for practicing their religion. They are who they are.
Of course the producers knew and I’m sure they were hoping for a lot more conflict than they got. In the context of life, I don’t blame Dan and Lee for practicing their religion but in the context of work, I do blame them for their team’s loss and somebody else’s firing. There have been several people on The Apprentice who I believe had much better reasons than religion for skipping a task but they didn’t. If I were an employer, those would be the people I’d want working in my business.
sleepyrn wrote:
I think you are incredibly funny and I have booked marked your blog to read daily. Personally I think you need to stay away from religion. You simply don’t “get it” and when you poke fun at people who do, you just look foolish. It would be like you trying to give a profound, intelligent speech in a language with which you have no familiarity. It doesn’t work and you just look like an idiot trying.
David. wrote:
Good commentary. even good-humored commentary. Thanks for the link-tb that brought me back. Oh, and thanks for enlarging my borders by an “R”. I’m not a countRy, yet, but a third world county guy can dream, can’t he?
David wrote:
Is sleepyrn compliementing you or repremanding you? Hmmmm. Anyways, good job defending your side of the story. You stated the facts, gave both sides of the issues and argued your point without being disrespectful or rude, and I for one, am impressed. Kudos Jenée. Kudos.
Shamalama wrote:
Aye, th’ lassie doos ‘av a bit o’ spit ‘n vinegar aboot her, ‘n little care fer th’ mincin’ ‘o words.
“Do you know of any corporations that allow time off specifically for religious holidays?”
Aye, that’n they do. Tom Cruise ‘n ‘is Scientology clan ‘n their chieftan Xenu doos tend ta make me bowels a’quiverin’, ‘n me woork job does giv’n me th’ soometimes ‘Sick Day’, they does.
Cheers ta ye!
Jenée wrote:
Could you be more specific about what I don’t “get?” Because here’s what I think I get: There are a lot of minority groups, particularly religious and racial, who will kick and scream when they’re discriminated against but are more than happy to accept preferential treatment. That tells me they’re not interested in equality, they only care about advancing their own special interests and that makes them as bad as anybody who’s ever persecuted their particular group.
Do you disagree with my standpoint that everybody should get the same number of days off regardless of their reason?
Kristi wrote:
Well defended.
Nicci wrote:
I understand where you are coming from. We are going through the same thing here. Sweden gives days off for Lutheran and Catholic holidays (heck, off for Midsummer, a PAGAN holiday!!!) but not Muslim and we have a very very high Muslim population. I do believe that if you give one religion days off you must give the same days off to everyone. Hence sick days and vacation days….although here that doesn’t work because you are given 5 weeks of paid vacation but most companies shut down the month of July so you are forced to take your vacation then. :twisted:
sleepyrn wrote:
Ah, now THAT point I can agree with whole heartedly. Some people use their religion to their own gain and then cry foul when soeone calls them on it. However, there are some who are honestly and sincerely trying to follow the “rules” of their religion. Orthodox Jews CANNOT work on the sabbath. No, some thug is not going come down and do whatever it is you said he would do. (that’s where you started to sound “less than funny”) But the orthodox jew who does work on the sabbath has, according to his/her faith, sinned. It doesn’t matter whether you understand it or not. They are concerned about their relationship with God not whether or not you understand. Do I think some of the rules that one has to follow to be an orthodox jew are senseless. Yes, they had their place in millenia past but today they just don’t fit. But I’m not jewish and it’s not for me to decide what they need to do to support their relationship with God.
Okay, I’ve lectured enough – more than you ever wanted to know.
As for corporations that give time off specifically for religious holidays – of course they do – all of them do – it’s called Christmas. (And believe it or not I’ve had jewish nurses volunteer to work for me so I could have Christmas off. Some people actually do “get it”)
Jenée wrote:
I DO understand how important people’s religions are to them but that has nothing to do with the workplace. If a company needs you to work on a particular day- whether it’s Yom Kippur or Christmas- and you CHOOSE not to work, then you should expect to be fired. This really isn’t a religious issue, it’s an equality issue. An employer shouldn’t discriminate against someone for their faith but they shouldn’t give them any special favors either. Can’t imagine why anybody should disagree with that, but I’d be interested in hearing why if anyone does disagree.
Jenée wrote:
Why in the world do you get 5 weeks of paid vacation? That’s awesome. Only teachers and people on unemployment get that here.
sleepyrn wrote:
I understand your view of favoritism and your frustration – how many non practicing jews demand to be off on yom kipper and rosh hashana (sp??) just because they can get away with it. How many non practicing christians demand christmas off – again because they can. (I realize most people are already off on Christmas. Alas hospitals never close and nurses always work). Personally I shy away from an all or nothing solution and would prefer to try to work it out amoung the staff. “I’ll work new years eve for you if you work Christmas for me”…(easier for nurses than other jobs – we are always switching shifts)
I dare say, in this age of political correctness no one will be fired for abusing a religious holiday. If I was the boss though, I be requiring a note from the rabbi, priest, pastor… Hell, employers demand notes from MDs when someone calls out sick, why not from religious leaders too?
And that is the last you will hear from me on the subject. You get the opportunity for the last word. It is your blog after all. I have enjoyed exchanging views, though, Thanks.
José wrote:
first of all, I have to credit you for linking to this through a blog hosted by an Orthodox Jew. That takes some nerve, or something…
In any case, as someone who has struggled with this, here are some thoughts:
I can’t speak for non-observatn jews that take off holidays. Honestly, I don’t really care, either. People will lie or mislead or whatever form any background. There hte problem is lying or misleading, not anything else.
As for people that are being honest, you’re right, it isn’t fair. You know what else isn’t fair? There are companies where people get to take several months off for maternity or paternity leave and come back to their office as if nothing had happened. Other people get to have doctors’ notes saying that htey can’t work because they have health issues with no proveable diagnoses, such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, or Depression which entitle them to social securities claims.
Even more messed up, because of these people’s beliefs (about their health, what is appropriate when it comes to raising a family, or their religion) when they come back to work from an experience that was often ANYTHING but a vacation, they get to deal with people that are entirely unsympathetic and loads of work to catch up on. Well deserved or not, it’s a reality.
Now, let’s add to the fact that many non-christians end up by default having to take off days that we would otherwise be happy to work because of the context we live in. For example, I work in a law firm where I handle all of our mexican clients. I would be more than happy to come into work on Sunday, Christmas, Easter or any of the other days our office is closed. However, that wouldn’t do us any good, because the overwhelming majority of mexicans are Catholic, or at least Christian, and calling their law firm on a holiday is really the last thing on their mind. Yes, I could go in on those days and sit waiting for the phone to ring, but it would be a waste of time for everyone involved.
I could go into a rant about how unfair it is that agnostics and atheists get to take all theri vacation at once and go to cancun or bermuda or wherever it is that atheists and agnostics go on extended vacation whereas I have to use my personal days, vacation days and sick days so that I can go to synagogue, fast and pray all day. You would say that that is the choice i made, and to a large degree, you are right. But by the same token, i coudl say to you, hey, you want more vacation days? Convert to Judaism take of fthe holidays an dobserve them by sittin ghome all day and reading. You would be well withing the limits of Orthodox Judaism by doing so. It’s your own choice that you don’t.
Again, I’m not saying that your’e right and I’m not saying that you’re wrong. I am however suggesting that it may not be as simple as you seem to be perceiving it. Consider for the moment that for many of us with a differnet holiday calendar, that we would be delighted to work on days that it isn’t feasible. Why should we be forced to live by the cycle imposed on us by other faith traditions? So long as we are able to continue contributing value to the field in which we are employed, why is it so wrong to accomodate our religious beliefs?
Nicci wrote:
lol! that is Sweden and from what I understand a lot of Europe. :evil: Gotta love it!
Jenée wrote:
Thanks and I will take that last word. I certainly couldn’t tolerate an employer who treated me like a child, expecting a note for my absence (do companies really do that)??? The major problem with such a system is that it requires judgment calls on gray areas that could encourage unrest among employees who aren’t requesting preferential treatment. Sure, an employer is entitled to operate that way but a fair employer gives each person ‘X’ amount of days off each year. The employee can use those days however they want to accommodate religious holidays, vacations, illnesses or even drinking binges.
I understand the religious perspective, so now try to see things from my perspective: I’ve worked since I was 14 and never called in sick a day in my life. I don’t subscribe to a religion and I don’t want children. That makes me quite untraditional in this country. I think it’s pretty screwed up if a person gets special privilleges to do something that’s important to them (like spend a day praying) and I should be denied the opportunity to do something that’s equally important to me simply because my reasons don’t fit the norm. I’m not asking for favors, just give me what everybody else gets.
Jenée wrote:
I didn’t see linking this to an Orthodox Jew’s site as having “nerve.” There’s this little optimistic part of me that still hopes people are open to hearing (and actually considering) alternate viewpoints. You said that you work in a law firm but based on your arguments, I have to assume you’re not an attorney.
I absolutely think an extended pregnancy leave is unfair. And since a pregnancy falls into the category of “choice” (at least for now) then a person who takes off more than the alloted number of days per year should suffer the same consequences as somebody who takes too many vacation days. Only a “taker” would expect sympathy from their co-workers for their absense. A “giver” would make sure the others are compensated for any inconveniences their absence may have caused.
I know you’re joking that a person should convert to Judaism so they can have more holidays but your comment highlights the fact that followers of some religions get more work exemptions than others. What happens when one person claims that their religion won’t allow them to work before noon (which is a religion I could really get behind) then another claims their religion won’t allow them to work two days in a row then another says he can only work four hours a day. Surely you’d want them accommodated for their religious beliefs the same way you expect to be accommodated for yours. How would you feel about having to pick up their slack? If your coworkers’ absence or short work days cost one of your Mexican clients the US citizenship he dreamed of, would you be ok with that? Because that’s precisely what happened on The Apprentice: two people’s absence impacted the team’s ability to perform its best, which cost someone her dream.
To answer your last two questions specifically:
“Why should we be forced to live by the cycle imposed on us by other faith traditions?”
Nobody is forced to live that way in this nation. If a company takes Christmas off, it’s usually due to the fact that it can’t conduct business or make money on that day. But that’s the employer’s decision to make, not the employee’s. If you’re a Christian and work in a place that requires you to work on Christmas, then you work Christmas. If you’re a Jew and they need you on Rosh Hashana, then you work. If you don’t want to do that, go work somewhere else. See? No forcing. You have a choice.
So long as we are able to continue contributing value to the field in which we are employed, why is it so wrong to accomodate our religious beliefs?”
To return to the original post, the two Jewish guys did NOT contribute to their team and their team lost. This was not a situation where the team could bring in substitutes to cover the workload. Their absence caused a burden on their co-workers and anyone who doesn’t think they should have been held accountable for their zero contribution deserves all the discrimination that’s handed to them.
Your sis wrote:
Not to get too serious here, but it’s important to remember that our wonderful lawmakers have decided in their infinite wisdom that certain groups should receive preferential treatment–at the expense of their employers. FMLA requires employers (with over a certain number of employees) to allow extended maternity AND paternity leave, as well as extended leave for medical reasons. As a result, employers suffer the expense (as well as other employees). So who do you think backs these laws? Democrats or Republicans? Thanks to these lawmakers, our “freedom of choice” goes out the window.
José wrote:
by saying it took nerve, I meant it as a compliment.
Responding directly to the show: I haven’t seen it and don’t know the details. I can’t comment to that effect.
I think you are also right that there need to be limits and I don’t disagree that there are people that will try to take advantage of the system. Those people will use any excuse, religious or otherwise, and to make a blanket decision based on that doesn’t strike me as any more fair—just unfair in the other direction.
I think your last reponse to my last question sums things up well: It seems this was a situation where people where doing a job that was, by definition, in conflict with other obligations that some of these contestants had. Substitutes couldn’t br brought in etc and these guys made their decision, in which case I agree, they should be the ones facing the consequences.
99% of the time however, I believe there is room for flexibility. For example, in the winter, on Fridays many orthodox Jews choose to leave work a bit early so that they can be home before sundown. Many of these same people during the rest of the week will work a bit later, and in doing so not force anyone else to “pick up their slack”. For example, you asked about what if one of my clients lost their chance at citizenship because I took a day off…that isn’t the field I work in but your point is valid. When I take these days off I usually spent at least the entire week before hand preparing to make sure that I get the work done that needs to be done, done. Just as, I’m sure, if you were to take your vacation time and their was some project coming up you’d make sure everything was in order so that your absence wouldn’t screw everything up entirely. That is merely a question of being responsible. Similarly, I would entirely expect that if other people ended up shouldering my work load that they were compensated, and that I woudl make it clear that if for whatever reason situations were reversed I would gladly do the same for them.
The way anti-discrimination laws are structured in this regard is that employers are required to accomodate religious needs insofar as those needs don’t make it impossible for the employee to do his/her work. Similarly, employers are obligated to give off religious holidays, but the employee has to give sufficient notice so that arrangements can be made.
If employees aren’t getting their job done, then it doesn’t much matter to me why they aren’t doing it. Sack ‘em. But if they are doign their work, making sure that they aren’t creating a burden for the company and getting their job done, then I see no reason why they shouldn’t get religious holidays off (be it Yom Kippur, Sacred Sleep Until Noon Time, or the Cult of 20-hours no work time), or really adjust their schedule any other way that they see fit.
Laura wrote:
I absolutely agree with this comment.
Laura wrote:
Uh, no. That is FASCIST! You really don’t get it- I mean, it doesn’t sound like you are a spiritual person at all. Different people have different beliefs and practice in different ways. It is an entirely PERSONAL choice and that is what Trump recognized and respected in giving Lee and Dan leeway on the show. I’m sorry to say, but your comments really were offensive. I know you were trying to be funny, but it was the kind of humor that depends on offensiveness. So, if you are following in those comedians’ footsteps, go for it. But don’t deny the fact that you are being extremely insensitive to Jews who take their faith and spirituatlity seriously. For those who practice seriously, it is not merely a day off but a very specific way to sanctify various elements of life. This is an ancient practice which has unfortunately been lost on many. A lot of Jews (and many other religious people) actually still give thanks and take time to think about and appreciate the world around them.
Jenée wrote:
So we disagree. You’re in favor of discrimination while I’m opposed to it in ANY form. I find it pathetic that so many special interest groups complain when they’re discriminated against, but then turn around and encourage discrimination in their favor.
squashed wrote:
Comment by Laura :: 2006-04-11 08:24:27
Uh, no. That is FASCIST! You really don’t get it- I mean, it doesn’tsound like you are a spiritual person at all. Different people have different beliefs and practice in different ways. It is an entirely PERSONAL choice and that is what Trump recognized and respected in giving Lee and Dan leeway on the show.”
Let’s put it this way. A lot of those “believe” is just made up modern mambo jambo. It’s re-interpretation of old text to justify selfishness.
of course I am all for that. when I read the bible, I see peacefull world with no suffering, and I should get a pay raise and yearlong vacation. Hey, ya want me to raise hell?